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Portugal with 10 month old baby
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SAM SPARKLE
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 3087
- Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:18 am
Jeez, this is hard work, you seem to think this is thinly vailed rant over screaming children, well its not - I recently flew back from Belfast and I was not in the best of moods, behind me was a Pakistani couple whose small child screamed and screamed I'm talking really screaming, My thoughts?, well I don' neeed this but what if there is something wrong with the baby? and they are flying to London to see if they can get Speciialist help, maybe or maybe not but I did at least have a sensible take on the situation. However, flying to Portugal or wherever with a baby just for a holiday - I'm sorry but I'll say it again seems to me Selfishness on the parents part.
And as yet nobody has been able to justify putting their small child thought that discomfort. Susie, you seem sensible, but before your child first flew you had to make the decision to go abroad or holiday somewhere at home, as it turned out you went abroad and the baby was fine, but just look at all the precautions you had to take to make sure nothing untoward happened. Taking young toddlers overseas is fine as far as I am concerned, its just the babes in arms I hate to see in discomfort. Also Ellie your son was attending a family crisis, so at least that is a justification. So, If you think I'm wrong about very young babies being subjected to Flying/high temperatures/insects etc, well thats your problem.
And as yet nobody has been able to justify putting their small child thought that discomfort. Susie, you seem sensible, but before your child first flew you had to make the decision to go abroad or holiday somewhere at home, as it turned out you went abroad and the baby was fine, but just look at all the precautions you had to take to make sure nothing untoward happened. Taking young toddlers overseas is fine as far as I am concerned, its just the babes in arms I hate to see in discomfort. Also Ellie your son was attending a family crisis, so at least that is a justification. So, If you think I'm wrong about very young babies being subjected to Flying/high temperatures/insects etc, well thats your problem.
Maybe it is a cultural thing - I get the impression that it is mostly british who will come on holiday to Carvoeiro with their kids still a young age. From my experience, regular german clients would refrain from travelling by plane untill their child had reached a certain age (around 3 or 4). For those few years they would go to places they could reach by car instead.
Granted England has a higher birth rate than Germany, but with an evenly spread occupancy between the two in the 2002 season, I would estimate that 85% of the cots we supplied went to english clients.
I guess if you live on an island that is connected to mainland Europe by a tunnel to France, your medium distance car travel options are fairly limited.
Granted England has a higher birth rate than Germany, but with an evenly spread occupancy between the two in the 2002 season, I would estimate that 85% of the cots we supplied went to english clients.
I guess if you live on an island that is connected to mainland Europe by a tunnel to France, your medium distance car travel options are fairly limited.
To my Swedish ears, Sam´s way of reasoning is quite remarkable, but
in some way also very British. I do not know why, but children seems
to be an annoyance in some ways in the U.K. We´d travelled a lot
with our first daughter starting from when she was 8 months, she´s been
following us all over the world as far as to Thailand. Everywhere smiling
faces and welcoming attitude, BUT while in the U.K children seems to be
less welcome, we were thrown out of more then one pub in London when
we wanted to have a drink of water just out of pure thirst. Would never
"dare" to go to a restaurant bringing a small child, unless it´s Mac Donalds
or anything similar there.
People here write the Portuguese are so welcoming to children in restaurants etc
and that´s true, but I think they are in most countries
out of the U.K to tell you the truth.
I do realize all are different, but I´ve come across Sam´s attitude so
many times and it sincerely made me wonder why children are such
annoyance to many in the U.K?
And I do not see why you could not travel with a child, if the parents
enjoy, it easier to take good care of your kid´s too. An I agree with
the person that wrote that children loves watching themselfes at
holidays as babies on photos later.
When it comes to crying on a plane, yes it is no fun, but it´s by
far worst for the parents and comments like Sams´s do not make
it easier for some either.
This summer we´re off to Carvoeiro, with our 4 year old girl and
our now 7 month old baby, the 7 month old went to Majorca last
month and everything went smooth. There were more noise from
drunken men in their 50´s/60´s on the plane then from our daughter
I think.....
Cheers!
Martin
in some way also very British. I do not know why, but children seems
to be an annoyance in some ways in the U.K. We´d travelled a lot
with our first daughter starting from when she was 8 months, she´s been
following us all over the world as far as to Thailand. Everywhere smiling
faces and welcoming attitude, BUT while in the U.K children seems to be
less welcome, we were thrown out of more then one pub in London when
we wanted to have a drink of water just out of pure thirst. Would never
"dare" to go to a restaurant bringing a small child, unless it´s Mac Donalds
or anything similar there.
People here write the Portuguese are so welcoming to children in restaurants etc
and that´s true, but I think they are in most countries
out of the U.K to tell you the truth.
I do realize all are different, but I´ve come across Sam´s attitude so
many times and it sincerely made me wonder why children are such
annoyance to many in the U.K?
And I do not see why you could not travel with a child, if the parents
enjoy, it easier to take good care of your kid´s too. An I agree with
the person that wrote that children loves watching themselfes at
holidays as babies on photos later.
When it comes to crying on a plane, yes it is no fun, but it´s by
far worst for the parents and comments like Sams´s do not make
it easier for some either.
This summer we´re off to Carvoeiro, with our 4 year old girl and
our now 7 month old baby, the 7 month old went to Majorca last
month and everything went smooth. There were more noise from
drunken men in their 50´s/60´s on the plane then from our daughter
I think.....
Cheers!
Martin
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SAM SPARKLE
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 3087
- Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:18 am
Hi Sam,
I do not say you are anti children. But I do not see why you should sit
at home and "sweat it" out 3-4 years before you take your children flying
for a holiday? To get on a flight today probably equals to getting on a
bus 20 years ago - I do not see the difference and why you should be
a "selfish" parent by doing so? Would you wait 3-4 years to take your
child on a bus? To me it feels more like one should stay home and not
upset the adult passangers until the children are more "presentable" to
the world. But the world is shrinking every day and if it´s o.k to go
on a car-holiday and drive your kid´s around many hours per day
why are you more "selfish" getting on a 2-3 hour flight?
Sorry, but I do not get it.
/
Martin
I do not say you are anti children. But I do not see why you should sit
at home and "sweat it" out 3-4 years before you take your children flying
for a holiday? To get on a flight today probably equals to getting on a
bus 20 years ago - I do not see the difference and why you should be
a "selfish" parent by doing so? Would you wait 3-4 years to take your
child on a bus? To me it feels more like one should stay home and not
upset the adult passangers until the children are more "presentable" to
the world. But the world is shrinking every day and if it´s o.k to go
on a car-holiday and drive your kid´s around many hours per day
why are you more "selfish" getting on a 2-3 hour flight?
Sorry, but I do not get it.
/
Martin
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Lesley Jean
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 4118
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:07 pm
- Location: Somerset. and Lombos
- Contact:
Ok Sam, to get to your point, that parents are selfish in taking young children/babies away on holiday to hot climates....I could not even contemplate leaving a child at home, wether it would be with realives or not, and going away on holiday without them. A family is a whole, you can not leave a part of that whole behind or you would be leaving part of yourself behind and what kind of holiday would that be, constantly worrying if your child was ok.
I do not think that Portugal is a particularly hot climate in comparison to the UK when we get a hot summer, so I can not accept your argument that it is somehow cruel to the child to put it through a holiday in a hot country.
Now if you were talking about the jungle or somewhere on the Equator where it would be totaly unsuitable for a young child then I would agree with you, but Portugal... I don't think so.
And please do tell me what is this terrible discomfort you are talking about? most young babies sleep while travelling, or if not, and the pressure upsets their ears then usually drinking from a bottle stops this, as you yourself will know that swallowing helps to even the pressure out. What other discomfort would there be, the heat, well it can get pretty hot in the south on England during the summer, about the same as in Portugal. And are there not such things as air-conditioning in a lot of hotels/apartments/villas these days.
I simply do not agree with your point and think that you are the selfish one in saying that a family with young children should not go abroad for a holiday.
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SAM SPARKLE
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 3087
- Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:18 am
Ok Martin, I will explain for the last time, I am more than happy for young babies to go on holiday, I just think that maybe for the first year or so their parents could just take them closer to home, there are plenty of holidays resorts that can be reached by not having to fly. The flight is only part of what I am saying, to take a baby to a hot climate and then have it subjected to mosquitos, hot weather, maybe even dodgy water that may contaminate their feeding bottle and god's knows what else, just seems to me a bit selfish after all its the parents who decide the holiday destination not the baby. Dont get me wrong in NO way am I saying they are bad parents, but maybe just a bit of consideration would not go amiss. This is a subject I have discussed many times over the years and I have to say the majority of people (including many parents) that I have discussed this with feel the same as me. So, Martin look at the bigger picture, its just not the flight, its the whole package, I'm not just talking about Portugal, it could be anywhere that has a hotter climate. I don't really what to dicuss this any further, I have my point of view on the subject (which we are all entitled to) and its not going to change. So until somebody tells me why it is the best thing that could happen to a young child and it would be in their best interests to go abroad at just a few months old, I'm sticking to my guns.
Whilst I understand Sam's comments, I do think that babies benefit from holidays, they may not remember it but the new smells sights and sounds must help their development - I bet they are programmed in there somewhere and relaxed parents for 1 or 2 weeks must surely outweigh the inital travel stress. nb, dummies, bottles lollies all help with popping ears!
I don't think you are selfish if you fly with small children, I took my 18mth old to the caribbean and spent 3 weeks fanning, spraying, netting and ensuring she was mozzie repelled & comfortable and so ended up with all the bites destined for her!!! but we all had a great time (one point to note: immobile babies are MUCH better travellers, once they've started crawling or toddling, you have so many more problems!!!)
In short, 'Selfish parents' will be selfish home and away and those that don't think about the comfort & safety of their offspring are the ones to complain about.
But thankfully, in my opinion they are few and far between. Most babies just like to show you up by becoming an air raid siren at the exact point in time that will cause you maximum embarrasment.
Oh just another thing that may be of help, if you have a bottle fed baby, try the ready made up milk packs for emergencies - they are lifesavers.
SWP
I don't think you are selfish if you fly with small children, I took my 18mth old to the caribbean and spent 3 weeks fanning, spraying, netting and ensuring she was mozzie repelled & comfortable and so ended up with all the bites destined for her!!! but we all had a great time (one point to note: immobile babies are MUCH better travellers, once they've started crawling or toddling, you have so many more problems!!!)
In short, 'Selfish parents' will be selfish home and away and those that don't think about the comfort & safety of their offspring are the ones to complain about.
But thankfully, in my opinion they are few and far between. Most babies just like to show you up by becoming an air raid siren at the exact point in time that will cause you maximum embarrasment.
Oh just another thing that may be of help, if you have a bottle fed baby, try the ready made up milk packs for emergencies - they are lifesavers.
SWP
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Lesley Jean
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 4118
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:07 pm
- Location: Somerset. and Lombos
- Contact:
To add another tip (and hopefully help Sam)
Babies cry on aircraft because they are incapable of equalising their ears to the aircraft pressure. Adults equalise either naturally, by holding their noise on forcing pressure against their ears, or by yawning. babies do not understand how to do this and consequently become upset.
Glugging from a bottle will normally sort out the problem. HOWEVER, the temptation is to give the baby the bottle as soon as the engines start up and the aircraft pushes back. Since this is an unusual experience the baby may start to cry and out comes the bottle - PLEASE WAIT - mine when they were youung could knock back a bottle in about 30 seconds (wonder where they got that skill from?) - therefore nothing left by the time you take off. Wait until you are airborne, give baby bottle and voila, glugging will repressurise ears and avoid squawking little monster. (If it doesn't, keep yawning at him/her - they find it impossible not to copy and this again will restore peace)
Note to Sam: I understand where you are coming from, but I think it is each individuals choice. My two year old is permanantly asking when we are going back to Portugal - he loves it and I wouldn't deny it to him. I am a self-confirmed workaholic in the UK, but when we come to Portugal, whilst I still have to work, the family comes first. It is my chance for quality time with my family which I know from experience just does not happen if I take a week off to stay at home (I would be back in the office by Tuesday - sad but true). The value of that time with my family in their formative years is immeasurable - and indeed it is the guaranteed climate, the beach and the facilities designed for people like me that make that time even more precious.
I am also aware that after about six months a new mother is, quite frankly, knackered. To have the child's father around 24 hours a day, with a climate and facilities conducive to him taking a much greater role in the childcare, is, I think, priceless. No matter how hard you try it just does not seem to happen if you stay at home or go to a hotel in Bournemouth. A villa holiday is the perfect way to enjoy time with your family and give your long suffering wife a break, and handled with a little bit of forethought and intelligence can be wonderful for the little ones.
PS If mine is the little one behind you playing with his tray on the aircraft I apologise - but actually you ought to just smile and be grateful you aren't the one trying to stop the little bu**er doing it without using anything more than an aggressive whisper!
Babies cry on aircraft because they are incapable of equalising their ears to the aircraft pressure. Adults equalise either naturally, by holding their noise on forcing pressure against their ears, or by yawning. babies do not understand how to do this and consequently become upset.
Glugging from a bottle will normally sort out the problem. HOWEVER, the temptation is to give the baby the bottle as soon as the engines start up and the aircraft pushes back. Since this is an unusual experience the baby may start to cry and out comes the bottle - PLEASE WAIT - mine when they were youung could knock back a bottle in about 30 seconds (wonder where they got that skill from?) - therefore nothing left by the time you take off. Wait until you are airborne, give baby bottle and voila, glugging will repressurise ears and avoid squawking little monster. (If it doesn't, keep yawning at him/her - they find it impossible not to copy and this again will restore peace)
Note to Sam: I understand where you are coming from, but I think it is each individuals choice. My two year old is permanantly asking when we are going back to Portugal - he loves it and I wouldn't deny it to him. I am a self-confirmed workaholic in the UK, but when we come to Portugal, whilst I still have to work, the family comes first. It is my chance for quality time with my family which I know from experience just does not happen if I take a week off to stay at home (I would be back in the office by Tuesday - sad but true). The value of that time with my family in their formative years is immeasurable - and indeed it is the guaranteed climate, the beach and the facilities designed for people like me that make that time even more precious.
I am also aware that after about six months a new mother is, quite frankly, knackered. To have the child's father around 24 hours a day, with a climate and facilities conducive to him taking a much greater role in the childcare, is, I think, priceless. No matter how hard you try it just does not seem to happen if you stay at home or go to a hotel in Bournemouth. A villa holiday is the perfect way to enjoy time with your family and give your long suffering wife a break, and handled with a little bit of forethought and intelligence can be wonderful for the little ones.
PS If mine is the little one behind you playing with his tray on the aircraft I apologise - but actually you ought to just smile and be grateful you aren't the one trying to stop the little bu**er doing it without using anything more than an aggressive whisper!
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