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oh no!!!
Guest,
in an earlier posting you claim (from what source?) that a course uses 2.8 m litres per day
very reliable, from an actual irrigation project in the Algarve
ok let us assume you are correct....on an average daily human consumption of 150 litres per day..that works out equal to a town of 18666.6 people... i have just checked and counted 28 golf courses in the algarve (ignored eg academy at penena plus other annexes)
that means that these golf courses are using water equal to 522648 people
(last time i heard the permanent population of the algarve was approx 300000)...also with this there is in approx 150 km of algarve coast we now have a golf course on average every 5.35 km.
let’s do the sums correctly for a year and not do a snap-shot in time throw out statement. I said everytime, in my previous threads, that the average high consumption rate is around 2.8m liters day, heat of the summer, July-August. Now when there is less evapotranspiration, more rain, less high temperatures, grass going dormant to lower temperatures, that consumption rate decreases. In the winter you will probably find there is actually little or no irrigation occurring because there is little or no turfgrass growth (dormancy of warm-season grasses) to warrant putting valuable water on unnecessarily to the course that is probably wet anyway from seasonal rains (including Fall and Spring). This is the bigger picture with water useage.
I was wondering if your figures per human are a daily average year in year out, or is there less consumption during the cooler months? Is this a domestic use figure, and does it exclude landscape useage, like watering one's lawn for an hour?
well i think the portuguese word "chega" sums it up!
in an earlier posting you claim (from what source?) that a course uses 2.8 m litres per day
very reliable, from an actual irrigation project in the Algarve
ok let us assume you are correct....on an average daily human consumption of 150 litres per day..that works out equal to a town of 18666.6 people... i have just checked and counted 28 golf courses in the algarve (ignored eg academy at penena plus other annexes)
that means that these golf courses are using water equal to 522648 people
(last time i heard the permanent population of the algarve was approx 300000)...also with this there is in approx 150 km of algarve coast we now have a golf course on average every 5.35 km.
let’s do the sums correctly for a year and not do a snap-shot in time throw out statement. I said everytime, in my previous threads, that the average high consumption rate is around 2.8m liters day, heat of the summer, July-August. Now when there is less evapotranspiration, more rain, less high temperatures, grass going dormant to lower temperatures, that consumption rate decreases. In the winter you will probably find there is actually little or no irrigation occurring because there is little or no turfgrass growth (dormancy of warm-season grasses) to warrant putting valuable water on unnecessarily to the course that is probably wet anyway from seasonal rains (including Fall and Spring). This is the bigger picture with water useage.
I was wondering if your figures per human are a daily average year in year out, or is there less consumption during the cooler months? Is this a domestic use figure, and does it exclude landscape useage, like watering one's lawn for an hour?
well i think the portuguese word "chega" sums it up!
Last edited by Tiny Tim on Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Seems to be very few golfers around willing to stick their their heads above the parapet on this one....
As a past golf club greens convener, and past club captain (there now I'm labelled), could I just say that I have played this evil game in many countries. However, only in countries with a genuine tradition of golf can I say that I have really enjoyed the game. These are on courses invariably owned and cared for by the members. They are normally built in areas where they are of no threat to the environment, they blend into the countryside, and their frequency is dictated by the catchment area of possible members. They will have been built on a shoestring budget, open to the vagaries of the climate, taken many years to mature and ever changing as the seasons change.
In the last 20 years however golf has sadly become an industry rather than a sport, and golf courses are now a considerable source of revenue for developers. The days of the members only club are disappearing fast as people are fuelled by greed, and little thought is given to the long term impact on the areas in which they are placed. The Algarve and even worse the Costa del Sol are typical examples of what is going wrong. To date in the Algarve there are, as has been said, at least 25 courses, all sitting out like sore thumbs, almost invariably carved out of the countryside rather than following natural contours. They are unnatural green oases, in a brown wilderness. And when you play these courses they are all basically of the same construction. Every fairway and every green is consistent, so that the challenge becomes less, and with it the enjoyment.
Now there are those who would claim that these monstrosities bring wealth to the area through tourism, and this is undoubtedly true, but what is the real cost to the region. It is the rape of the area, the destruction of natural beauty, and the disruption of local lives. The vast majority of people who come in their hordes to play golf for a week have no interest in the area, or the people. It is golf, food, drink: in what order depends on the group
I think this topic was originally about graffiti. These golf courses are to me grafitti on a gargantuan scale.
Now its wet, and windy, and I'm off struggle round 9 holes and enjoy the fading beauty of the autumn leaves on the trees, and curse at the leaves afoot in which I will surely lose a few balls, and I will be in my element.
As a past golf club greens convener, and past club captain (there now I'm labelled), could I just say that I have played this evil game in many countries. However, only in countries with a genuine tradition of golf can I say that I have really enjoyed the game. These are on courses invariably owned and cared for by the members. They are normally built in areas where they are of no threat to the environment, they blend into the countryside, and their frequency is dictated by the catchment area of possible members. They will have been built on a shoestring budget, open to the vagaries of the climate, taken many years to mature and ever changing as the seasons change.
In the last 20 years however golf has sadly become an industry rather than a sport, and golf courses are now a considerable source of revenue for developers. The days of the members only club are disappearing fast as people are fuelled by greed, and little thought is given to the long term impact on the areas in which they are placed. The Algarve and even worse the Costa del Sol are typical examples of what is going wrong. To date in the Algarve there are, as has been said, at least 25 courses, all sitting out like sore thumbs, almost invariably carved out of the countryside rather than following natural contours. They are unnatural green oases, in a brown wilderness. And when you play these courses they are all basically of the same construction. Every fairway and every green is consistent, so that the challenge becomes less, and with it the enjoyment.
Now there are those who would claim that these monstrosities bring wealth to the area through tourism, and this is undoubtedly true, but what is the real cost to the region. It is the rape of the area, the destruction of natural beauty, and the disruption of local lives. The vast majority of people who come in their hordes to play golf for a week have no interest in the area, or the people. It is golf, food, drink: in what order depends on the group
I think this topic was originally about graffiti. These golf courses are to me grafitti on a gargantuan scale.
Now its wet, and windy, and I'm off struggle round 9 holes and enjoy the fading beauty of the autumn leaves on the trees, and curse at the leaves afoot in which I will surely lose a few balls, and I will be in my element.
-
Guest
the figure of 150 litres per day is an average...as you point out it will be less in cooler weathers and also in hotter times even more. for example my father who specialised in hospital design had to assume for hospital use a consumption of 300 litres per day was the norm.
when you say the hottest parts of july and august...you forget that june and september are also hot..in fact my temp guage in oct registered 90 fht
simply stated as my sums i hope have shown is that these 28 golf courses even if i accept only the premise of july and august are using enough water for over 500000 people.
you say that these "university" trained people are concerned about the environment..well i do hope so...for they are creating and designing things which cannot be sustained.
in the immortal lines from the film "jurasic park"
the question is not could we...it is should we?
i think we have enough courses here as well as marinas,,,time as ellie so correctly pointed out,,,why not a nature park...or something else that will contribute to the stop of the desertification of the algarve. a trip over the border to spain reveals that north of spain there is a massive aforrestation programme in place..certainly that is a postive step
for me that is the last i will say on the subject..i just hope that no golf course is built near me as i only have a borehole, no mains water.
when you say the hottest parts of july and august...you forget that june and september are also hot..in fact my temp guage in oct registered 90 fht
simply stated as my sums i hope have shown is that these 28 golf courses even if i accept only the premise of july and august are using enough water for over 500000 people.
you say that these "university" trained people are concerned about the environment..well i do hope so...for they are creating and designing things which cannot be sustained.
in the immortal lines from the film "jurasic park"
the question is not could we...it is should we?
i think we have enough courses here as well as marinas,,,time as ellie so correctly pointed out,,,why not a nature park...or something else that will contribute to the stop of the desertification of the algarve. a trip over the border to spain reveals that north of spain there is a massive aforrestation programme in place..certainly that is a postive step
for me that is the last i will say on the subject..i just hope that no golf course is built near me as i only have a borehole, no mains water.
I love the game of golf so it was tough reading what Rod said. I have to agree with him on the things he says. Golf has become business and big corporate golf clubs are going in everywhere. Often built with one large clubhouse and two, three courses around them. You just finish one round, eat, play again. I am guilty of doing just that.
The most enjoyable golf is in the tradition rich areas. Scotland has courses that are hundreds of years old and they are still very enjoyable. The courses fit into the landscape there.
But, what is worse is more buildings. At least the golf courses save some land from being turned into housing. When the land becomes more valued has property for a housing development; then the courses will disappear and villas will replace them.
Until then, look at golf courses has parkland and know that folks like myself are out there socializing with friends. And making new friends who just join up to play. Gorr0
The most enjoyable golf is in the tradition rich areas. Scotland has courses that are hundreds of years old and they are still very enjoyable. The courses fit into the landscape there.
But, what is worse is more buildings. At least the golf courses save some land from being turned into housing. When the land becomes more valued has property for a housing development; then the courses will disappear and villas will replace them.
Until then, look at golf courses has parkland and know that folks like myself are out there socializing with friends. And making new friends who just join up to play. Gorr0
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Ellie
over building
Along with Gambrinus I'd like to second Rods statement--a forthright honest one----the original topic was about the proposed plan to build 1000 villas in the Silves area ---which made me throw up my hands in horror--Im finding it hard enough to deal with that new motorway to Silves under which disappeared countryside that I knew and loved ----
Somehow it graduated almost completely onto golf courses and its gone on and on--ad infinitum-----there are more than enough courses and probably more than enough villas being built (of that Im sure and for those who can "afford" them) --just spare a thought for those who have to live in run down squalid conditions-- some of which you can readily see in parts of Lagoa---yet wonderful commercial buildings go up ---just what is being done for local people----nothing much at all--from what Ive witnessed.
Somehow it graduated almost completely onto golf courses and its gone on and on--ad infinitum-----there are more than enough courses and probably more than enough villas being built (of that Im sure and for those who can "afford" them) --just spare a thought for those who have to live in run down squalid conditions-- some of which you can readily see in parts of Lagoa---yet wonderful commercial buildings go up ---just what is being done for local people----nothing much at all--from what Ive witnessed.
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Guest
Re: over building
Spare me the bleeding heart liberal spiel. This is down to local authorities, and the local people have a say...if they are being stifled, then that's another matter. Meanwhile I reserve judgement.Ellie wrote:just what is being done for local people----nothing much at all--from what Ive witnessed.
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Uggie
And I also care. Nobody wants to see entire regions and cultures swallowed up by big corporations and spewed out as homogenised "clone" resorts, but don't forget that local people do benefit from increased employment and general prosperity.
Before you go deciding what's best for the locals, it might be an idea to ask them what they want.
My point is that the extent of development is ultimately decided by by "the locals". It may be that selfish interests are put above the overall welfare of the region (the bigger picture, as it were), but that unfortunately is human nature.
Without meaning to cause any offense, Ellie, during your time in the Algarve, would your husband have refused contracts to work on any of these developments "on principle"?
If the fact that these developments are getting out of hand can be in any way attributed to currupt "local" officials lining their own pockets, then that is where the vitriol should be aimed, that is the real problem, and only "the locals" can resolve it!
Btw way, I applaud Rod's piece, but also have to assume, based on the fact that he's a part of this forum, that Rod has enjoyed some of the courses in the Algarve.
It all comes down to balance, and in this case...too much of a "good" thing
Before you go deciding what's best for the locals, it might be an idea to ask them what they want.
My point is that the extent of development is ultimately decided by by "the locals". It may be that selfish interests are put above the overall welfare of the region (the bigger picture, as it were), but that unfortunately is human nature.
Without meaning to cause any offense, Ellie, during your time in the Algarve, would your husband have refused contracts to work on any of these developments "on principle"?
If the fact that these developments are getting out of hand can be in any way attributed to currupt "local" officials lining their own pockets, then that is where the vitriol should be aimed, that is the real problem, and only "the locals" can resolve it!
Btw way, I applaud Rod's piece, but also have to assume, based on the fact that he's a part of this forum, that Rod has enjoyed some of the courses in the Algarve.
It all comes down to balance, and in this case...too much of a "good" thing
-
Ellie
The Truth
Well Uggie,
i have to be honest with you --and say(by the way Hub & I were partners in our business then)---that maybe then(eleven years ago neary now) if the case had come up Ive no doubt we would have readily accepted work say on a big development like a golf course.
We were "very small fry" though --just 3 Portuguese fellas working for us ---and our work then was nearly all private homes--not just kitchens/furniture etc but we carried out repair work also.To be perfectly frank--we'd have jumped at the chance. We'd sunk every bit of capital into it and much of the time was just ticking over!
I may sound a terrible hypocrite-but that was then--this is now-I feel and see things differently--and genuinely worry.
You seem much more "wised up" on the situation--and maybe I let my feelings get the better of me.
You say it all boils down to "balance" but to me there seems a big "imbalance" going on.
I have to make a confession now--as Ive just recalled that we "did" do a little work on the Rocha Brava complex---nothing big--we couldnt have handled that
You say that "only the locals" can resolve it---I wish they could/would---but once again I can only say what Ive been told by those locals that I know.
My friends little supemarket in CVO--put out of business by the Intermarche-shes now working in her husbands one in Lagoa--next to Farmacia--and each time I visited last month--the place was almost empty--a few locals wandering in thats all--and I see the worried look on my friends faces--I hate to say this and I sincerely hope Im wrong--but the place seemed to be dying on its feet----thats why Im sad---but feel unable to do anything about it.
I take on board all that you say Uggie--Im sure youre more logical-but I feel passionately about my former home--and I cant see myself ever changing.
i have to be honest with you --and say(by the way Hub & I were partners in our business then)---that maybe then(eleven years ago neary now) if the case had come up Ive no doubt we would have readily accepted work say on a big development like a golf course.
We were "very small fry" though --just 3 Portuguese fellas working for us ---and our work then was nearly all private homes--not just kitchens/furniture etc but we carried out repair work also.To be perfectly frank--we'd have jumped at the chance. We'd sunk every bit of capital into it and much of the time was just ticking over!
I may sound a terrible hypocrite-but that was then--this is now-I feel and see things differently--and genuinely worry.
You seem much more "wised up" on the situation--and maybe I let my feelings get the better of me.
You say it all boils down to "balance" but to me there seems a big "imbalance" going on.
I have to make a confession now--as Ive just recalled that we "did" do a little work on the Rocha Brava complex---nothing big--we couldnt have handled that
You say that "only the locals" can resolve it---I wish they could/would---but once again I can only say what Ive been told by those locals that I know.
My friends little supemarket in CVO--put out of business by the Intermarche-shes now working in her husbands one in Lagoa--next to Farmacia--and each time I visited last month--the place was almost empty--a few locals wandering in thats all--and I see the worried look on my friends faces--I hate to say this and I sincerely hope Im wrong--but the place seemed to be dying on its feet----thats why Im sad---but feel unable to do anything about it.
I take on board all that you say Uggie--Im sure youre more logical-but I feel passionately about my former home--and I cant see myself ever changing.
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Ellie
Post Script
By the way Uggie--I wasnt offended by youre asking whether we would have worked for a big development at that time--but more by the "Bleeding heart liberal spiel"
and--dont know about now--but in our time there --locals including our Portuguese friends/workforce--were "in fear" of the local authorities/Camara --really intimidated--have things improved I wonder--anyone know?
Whats the point of a "democracy" if the people are stifled-after all --theydidnt get a vote or a say in whether they joined the Euro--but come to that neither did the Dutch
Some of my sons Dutch friends (young students)were angry about this and want their Gilda back---others were apathetic---apathy is big enemy--and can let forces of extreme in-------so youre right in that people "should" stand up and let their voices be heard
and--dont know about now--but in our time there --locals including our Portuguese friends/workforce--were "in fear" of the local authorities/Camara --really intimidated--have things improved I wonder--anyone know?
Whats the point of a "democracy" if the people are stifled-after all --theydidnt get a vote or a say in whether they joined the Euro--but come to that neither did the Dutch
Some of my sons Dutch friends (young students)were angry about this and want their Gilda back---others were apathetic---apathy is big enemy--and can let forces of extreme in-------so youre right in that people "should" stand up and let their voices be heard
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Guest
Isnt what is going on in the Algarve re golf courses and larger supermarkets just a reflection of what is going on in any country that appears to be enjoying so called "progress"?
Here in the Uk its only the large companies that seem to be expanding at great rates... we all know the ones... Tescos etc... outdoing the smaller retailer.
As in an earlier post on another thread I made..... we are all guilty of allowing this to happen as we travel and take advantage of the so called convenience of whats on offer.
Locals will suffer and locals will gain. It happens here and it will continue to happen.
It is sad and that is why I am soon to opt out of the rat race and try to live
a more simplistic life if I possibly can.
"Fat cats get fatter and we can stop them" thats my motto.
I believe we have to soon realise that along with this type of discussion and others surrounding yobs and criminals that the world has lost the fight.
Do gooders have had their way and now look at the mees we are in.
Alot to digest I know... but thats my feelings.
Obrigado
Here in the Uk its only the large companies that seem to be expanding at great rates... we all know the ones... Tescos etc... outdoing the smaller retailer.
As in an earlier post on another thread I made..... we are all guilty of allowing this to happen as we travel and take advantage of the so called convenience of whats on offer.
Locals will suffer and locals will gain. It happens here and it will continue to happen.
It is sad and that is why I am soon to opt out of the rat race and try to live
a more simplistic life if I possibly can.
"Fat cats get fatter and we can stop them" thats my motto.
I believe we have to soon realise that along with this type of discussion and others surrounding yobs and criminals that the world has lost the fight.
Do gooders have had their way and now look at the mees we are in.
Alot to digest I know... but thats my feelings.
Obrigado
-
Guest
Hello me again as above.
Christmas is another fine example as to why we have all gone wrong and how we have all contributed to the mass overspend.
In the name of what? is what I ask.
COMMERCIALISATION..........thats what.
Greed is the word and it dominates all our lives.
Sorry to be so down but its true as far as I am concerned.
Know that "G" wll agree.
Christmas is another fine example as to why we have all gone wrong and how we have all contributed to the mass overspend.
In the name of what? is what I ask.
COMMERCIALISATION..........thats what.
Greed is the word and it dominates all our lives.
Sorry to be so down but its true as far as I am concerned.
Know that "G" wll agree.
-
Ellie
Out of the race
Like your motto Guest "Fat cats get fatter and we can stop them!"
So youre opting out of the rat race?
How you doing it? Please--Id love to know.
Im definitely in tune with you about "Christmas"--I keep trying to run away from it "It" started soon as I got back from CVO on Oct4th-or so it seems--Xmas puds--jars of mincemeat on display alongside Xmas biscs. and crackers-----and yesterday Nov 5th(Guy Fawkes& all that)--My ears were blasted by --truly--"and here it is merry Christmas " from a corner shop---- please!!! --Ive got to get away!
But still got 6 agonising weeks left till we drive off to Seville--I could well be strapped in a jacket by then-----------wheres the road that leads us out of this race Guest--I really want to know
Add to your motto "power to the people" --think thats TinyTims one--------
So youre opting out of the rat race?
How you doing it? Please--Id love to know.
Im definitely in tune with you about "Christmas"--I keep trying to run away from it
"It" started soon as I got back from CVO on Oct4th-or so it seems--Xmas puds--jars of mincemeat on display alongside Xmas biscs. and crackers-----and yesterday Nov 5th(Guy Fawkes& all that)--My ears were blasted by --truly--"and here it is merry Christmas " from a corner shop---- please!!! --Ive got to get away!But still got 6 agonising weeks left till we drive off to Seville--I could well be strapped in a jacket by then-----------wheres the road that leads us out of this race Guest--I really want to know
Add to your motto "power to the people" --think thats TinyTims one--------