Tit for Tat

Ellie · Post by **Ellie** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:53 am

I agree with Guest..give people their land/own state( which was given to the Jews) ..don't forget employment too...unemployment in Gazza is 80 %.
But Michael youre wrong in saying Israelis don't want peace...a recent poll..last week I believe...result ?....The great majority of the people (Im not saying government) PEOPLE ..want a peaceful settlement.
This was stated on question time last night by Ned Temko..editor of the Jewish Chronicle.
and Cowboy ? I have tried to stay on topic..if you read most of my posts youll see that....I was merely trying to help young Matt in his search for teaching abroad..thats all! and he has given his opinions too on the troubled middle east.

Michael Crane · Post by **Michael Crane** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:23 pm

Ellie, isn't Israel a democratic state? If the 'people' really want peace then why don't they elect a govenrment that wants it too?

I'll tell you why. It's because the country needs the tax dollars that enable it to fight a war. These tax dollars sent by a wellmeaning? US government prop the country up and enable it to survive when its neighbours are doing the opposite.

Can you imagine the furore if a wealthy Arab state started supplying the Palestinians with arms and money; built up an air-force, even enabled them to construct missiles, perhaps even nuclear armamants? How long do you think it would be before Bush sent in the troops? PDQ - that's how soon!

I'm not a violent man by bature but, if I were a Palestinian I'd also want to regain the lands taken by the Jews and restore my homeland. I would not go so far as to be (or support) suicide bombing of innocent Israelis, but I wouldn't have any qualms about military targets.

If those that favour Israel were to step back and look at it from a Palestinian viewpoint, I think their opinions might change.

I don't know who 'guest' is, but I agree with their post. Well said.

Ellie · Post by **Ellie** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:28 pm

Well Michael..the Israelis have had many leaders haven't they since their first elected leader (Ben Gurian..I think..not sure of spelling)...of differing political persuasion...and have not yet experienced peace.
I for one..sincerely hope they chuck out Sharon and please God ..they get someone who will sit round the table with their 'enemies' and try to bring about a peace settlement.
Although Im in no way taking sides and I want the Palestinian people to have their rightful land back..for them to live in peace...my heart bleeds for those Arab youngsters who are drawn into the terrorists ways and I long for a day when Arab & Jewish kids can live in harmony...
But remember..the Jews have been persecuted since their beginnings and it is still there today...
We have to be very careful of the 'anti semitism' that can creep into these discussions....which gives fodder to the likes of the National Front...Neo-Nazi parties etc..
without knowing it..we can start to paint a very dark picture..and end up condeming a whole nation for the crimes that its leaders carry out..
I watched a documentary recently...about the Pope in WW2....where he allowed Jews to be taken by nazis in order to protect the vatican..I was truly shocked as people who were around him at the time said he(the pope) was really anti-semitic..that he wouldn't even utter the word 'Jew'...but I almost laughed at this..
Jesus Christ himself was a Jew...and always obeyed the laws of Judaism...
Id like to pose a question here!
Why is it that Jews have always been so persecuted?
Id like to know if any of you can tell me the answer. I feel quite ignorant on the subject.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:45 pm

Well I'll give you three reasons, though not all of them might make sense in this age

Hebrews are the'apple of gods eye'', so satan is using all his efforts to harm god by destroying the jews.

While it was the romans who crucified christ, it was the jews who betrayed him, and early christianity went out of its way to blame and villify jews, and the message stuck

Jews make up 0.3% of the worlds population, but are immensely powerful through the positions they hold in commerce - and so people who arent as wealthy resent them

Ellie · Post by **Ellie** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:00 pm

Thank-you Guest.

Will it always be so d'you think?
Christ..a Jew..preached love & forgiveness...love thy neighbour....yet the world 2000 on .. in a much worse state than His time...
What is a Messianic Jew?
Is it one who, although brought up in the Jewish faith also believes Christ was the son of God? or God's prophet
Seems an approproate topic in the run up to Easter

Matt K · Post by **Matt K** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:12 pm

I would agree with the view that the US is highly responsible for propping up Israel, and in doing so, propping up Israeli terrorism, and the subsequent Palestinian terrorism- kind of shows up the stupidity of Bush's "War on Terror".

Im interested by the views offered on what the solution is. I think the USA need to withdraw their support, but would that weaken Israel for that long? The Jewish people have always been excellent when handling money and playing the capitalist game-surely they would retain this skill and still be a financial power, and so be a strong military force.

I think that the situation in Israel is really part of a much larger conflict within the world, between capitalist west, and totalitarian middle east. It is inevitable that this situation between Isreal and Palestine will occur as this is where the western world values meets middle eastern values. Therefore, solving the Isreal/Palestine conflict will only happen when the wider conflict is solved. I think that the main reason for the hate between the west and middle east is based on completely different value systems. In general, the West places emphasis on financial achivement, while the middle east dont want this, and place emphasis on religion and family ties. But actually the youth of the middle east are unhappy with the way things stand-and it is the youth who will cause revolution. Therefore, the leaders of the totalitarian regimes deflect the youths anger towards America, telling them that it is the West who are to blame for your quality of life, not us! the result is more and more young muslims join terrorist groups like hammas, al quaeda etc. So whats the solution? I think that it is to rid the muslim nations of dictators, and allow the people to gain rights, give them free choice, and the oppurtunity to become affluent, like we can here in the west. When this happens, you can be sure that the muslim people will begin to lose their hatrid of the west, as they will become more like us. The oppurtunity to become rich and get a better quality of life will reduce the emphais and importance of religion, and the clashes between the two sides will slowly disappear as we become more and more alike.

Peacemakers · Post by **Peacemakers** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:04 pm

Check out the Shalom centre
www.shalomctr.org

Ellie · Post by **Ellie** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:13 pm

Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be called the children of God.
Matt.5..verse 9
Whatever religious denomination

monty-python · Post by **monty-python** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:36 am

what was that?
Blessed are the cheesemakers?

cowboy · Post by **cowboy** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:46 am

Is it possiable to have "Peace" in the Mid-East and the State of Israil at the same time?

So whats the solution? I think that it is to rid the muslim nations of dictators, and allow the people to gain rights, give them free choice, and the oppurtunity to become affluent, like we can here in the west.

Even the Portugese are having a problem with this....they are lousing (sp) their Culture, and the Algarve is becoming a Golf Course (sp) and a Haven for High Rises and Petty Theft...........

Once you buy into Western Culture, it overwhelems (sp) any values that they may have held dear and true.

And if you don't buy into it, the West has the guns and the money to make you change your mind ( the USA isn't the first player in this game).

The oppurtunity to become rich and get a better quality of life will reduce the emphais and importance of religion, and the clashes between the two sides will slowly disappear as we become more and more alike.

Religion is at the heart of this:

Family Values to the Religious Right in the U.S....
.
Fighting the Infidels and Keeping the Western Corruption away from their Society in the Mid-East.

How do you split the differance?

MattK · Post by **MattK** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:37 pm

Even the Portugese are having a problem with this....they are lousing (sp) their Culture, and the Algarve is becoming a Golf Course (sp) and a Haven for High Rises and Petty Theft...........

Yes, these are the problems with the spread of golbalization I agree. But dont you think that the advantages that comes with "buying into western culture" outwiegh these problems. Ok, capitalism is crap, but for us here in the west, it has given all people more rights and a much better living condition. The people in the middle east dont have the luxuries we take for granted here in the west e.g. free speech, democracy, the chance to make our lives better.

Once you buy into Western Culture, it overwhelems (sp) any values that they may have held dear and true.

And if you don't buy into it, the West has the guns and the money to make you change your mind ( the USA isn't the first player in this game).

Firstly, I think that "western" culture does change values of the people so they become more geared to money making so capitalism can grow. However, it does not take away values such as family ties and religion completly-in the western world we have free choice, so we can choose our values and the way we live our lives. Secondly, you make it sound as if our culture is completley evil-and yes- it does have alot of down points, but consider what middle eastern culture is like (in terms of how people live their lives and develop). Totalitarianism is the lowest of the low when it comes to culture. The people have values, not because they hold them dear and true, but because they will be punished by their oppressers if they dont obey the dictated culture. Do you really think that the west has to force the people in these countries to change, do you not think that they are deep down completly envious of the advantages that western culture has given us- and wonder how it could improve their lives? Would you choose to be raised in somewhere like Iraq instead of the US/UK? I know what my choice would be.

Matt

Ellie · Post by **Ellie** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:54 pm

I so agree with your last paragraph Matt.
Ill give you another example on this..as..again ..experienced by my youngest son.
Whilst at university in London..he befriended a young Iranian. This young man had been living here a few years before starting Uni. All of his family were still in Iran..the former Persia. He was extremely worried for his family. He showed us photos of his family (mother/father/grandparents etc) when they lived under the previous ruler the Shah of Persia.
The he showed us photos of them since the Ayatollahs had taken over.
The first photos showed happy people in modern dress..the women free to show their faces and have equal rights (well..mostly) work etc as men.
But the second photos were of unsmiling people..even with a fearful look..and all you could see of his mother/grandmother/aunties/sister..were their eyes..the rest was covered from head to toe(you'll have to forgive me..Ive forgotten name of the dress).
The women had been set back decades..as they had to live with their faces/bodies covered..and I think he said..they had been prevented from driving & other activities.
And again..like Matt..I know where Id rather be living.

Ellie · Post by **Ellie** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:09 pm

Just thought...is it called a 'Burkah'...when women are covered except for their eyes?
When J taught in Egypt..he was warned never to wear shorts for work or walking around ..as it was considered offensive.and of course ..he stuck to the rules.

Gerry Cullen · Post by **Gerry Cullen** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:52 pm

Hi ellie i know this is a bit late but going back to the jewish thing,in the middle ages it was forbidden by most religans to trade money ie money lending one of the few that could were the jews,so kings lords etc setting off on the crusades(in the hope oflooting a few bob)often had to borrow the finances from the local pawn broker i.e the jew.Not all these crusaders made the money they hoped to so on arriving home broke and now in debt it was a lot easier to stir up anti jewish feeling rather then honour the debt,and there were a lot of these guys in the same boat.and i bet you thought they only went to spread the good word.

Ellie · Post by **Ellie** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:19 pm

Hi Gerry,
Thats everso interesting..I wasnt aware of that going on then.
Youre right about the'crusaders' ..and they werent so wonderful as they were made out to be!
Look what happened in Silves for example...they went there to rid the Algarve of the Moors...and succeeded ..only by depriving them of their water supply...
but they werent satisfied with defeating the Moors...they humiliated them..and took all their possessions..even the clothes they stood up in.There are some ghastly stories of what the crusaders did to their captives..too awful to mention...done in the name of Christianity!!
I read one story of Roman Britain..where Jews were in hiding in City of York... think it was beneath their place of worship....the place was surrounded by Romans..and they kept them in there till they starved to death. Reminiscant of WW2 and what happened at Warsaw,Poland..which was wired off..they were fenced in..and starved..
I dont condone many of the things carried out by Israel nowadays..but is it any wonder they are so defensive..considering their history?
P.S. The latest ghastly news today ..of a young 7year old Arab boy killed in crossfire..God rest him....will it ever end?