Due Diligence - make sure you do yours

[td]

Having just got back from a long weekend in Cvo - indifferent weather - but pleasant nonetheless - I thought I would share something that came out of a small social event we attended on Saturday - with 11 people present - of which 2 were Brits (3 Irish, 2 Dutch, 2 Portuguese and 2 Danish) - 6 are residents.

I asked if anybody was aware of the event that dominated the Forum last week and named the people and organisation involved - nobody knew anything about the matter and had never heard of the names I mentioned. I explained the situation that had arisen and was surprised at the reaction of the majority - they were not in the least surprised.

Some knew of this site/forum but only visited on the odd occasion - they never participated as they feel it is a 'Brits' only site and don't hold us Brits high on their 'esteem list' - so avoid it. The general consensus was that being 'Brits' only, those who use the forum do so to ask/seek advice on matters on which they require guidance. Based on what they read and generally without any due diligence take the advice given at face value - because they take the view that it's appearance on the forum - somehow endorses its 'credibility/integrity. Such misguided naivety leaves the door open for every conniving con-man/woman and their sort to take advantage.

Of course it happens in all communities - some more so than others and at the risk of stating 'the bleeding obvious' - do what most of us do and treat every offer of service/assistance as being too good to be true - because it invariably is. It's a sad sign of our times that you have to be constantly on your guard when dealing with every aspect of life in this modern world - if you don't or take a short-cut ................................

[Michael Crane]

So, after hearing what you had to say, had any of them had dealings with the person/company concerned? Were they aware of its reputation? Also, did you point out this forum has a foreign members' section and is not just for us British?

[rossi]

don't anybody even think of posting this topic on another thread in the meantime, because I will ban you so fast it will make your head spin)Gambrinus
Moderator

Gambrinus...................I hope you are now going to ban Mr Crane asap.

[laserblazer]

don't anybody even think of posting this topic on another thread in the meantime, because I will ban you so fast it will make your head spin)Gambrinus
Moderator

Gambrinus...................I hope you are now going to ban Mr Crane asap.

You are one nasty person rossi I suspect that it's the likes of you that gives us this unfavourable reputation.

[td]

The general consensus among our friends anyway is that it is a Brit forum - they accepted there were other languages catered for - but it was not something that interested them.

No - they knew nothing of the other matter or the personalities - never heard of them.

[shanagarry]

Don't acknowledge him/her - ignore!

[Gambrinus]

Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention and also for quoting me out of context while you were at it.

The review is finished and this topic is only using the Mazza thread as a point of reference in a discussion about forum usage in general, but that really is besides the point.

In your (repeated) reports on Mr Crane's post you say something about truth, but all you have produced so far is everything but a single coherent argument or even a shred of evidence to support the truth. Mr Crane has consolidated complaints from a number of affected parties who have had no success in establishing dialogue. If there had been so much as a response from "your" side to the numerous contact requests, then this would probably have been avoidable.

Now as I see it you are welcome to pursue any legal means at your disposal to resolve this issue and make this all go away, but at this point trying to undermine forum exposure by continuously posting and reporting is just like pissing into the wind....

[steve]

In football trying to influence the referee to book another player is in itself a bookable offence. Surely it is now time that the thoroughly and persistently unpleasant Rossi is shown a red card and sent off the pitch.

[shanagarry]

Hi Laserblazer - your comments are very true but take heart - it's the few that screw it up for the rest as can be evidenced from some parts of this thread.

Never mind - we Irish don't mind you - as long as you continue playing Rugby badly - very badly

[td]

I was careful not to mention or make any reference to names etc when originating this topic as I only intended to draw attention to the apparent 'Brit Only' impression to this site. It's not a criticism - it's a fact of life and I know there are other nationalities who follow things on here - long may that continue. My friends do not subscribe to any type of forum and question my reasoning for doing so. My logic for doing so is that it is something to do while I sit in airports waiting for flights - but does sometime follow me home.

While the incident that dominated last week was known to me, my post was simply a 'buyer beware' beacon to any unsuspecting souls who might believe that anything posted on or through this site carries some form of endorsement - clearly it does not and carrying out your due diligence should not be seen as you distrusting the vendor. The nature of the purchase will determine the extent of your enquiries and short-cuts should not be considered.

While I'm on here I have to remark first on rossi's 'appearance' on this thread - guilty conscience comes to mind and secondly on the resounding response from Gambrinus pointing out the 'facts of life' to this despicable person - who will struggle to understand anyway given their lack of intelligence and common decency.

[EMM]

Back to the original posting,

The trend to seek lower and lower costs leaves individuals open to the type of behaiviour we have seen reported.
As in any business sector there are good ,bad and indifferent unfortunately all too often we do not want to pay the real price for good service.

Maybe these events will persuade those who constantly seek the cheapest that sometimes you are better off with the devil you know.

I cannot understand why anyone would use a management company/individual to pay utilities ( its easy to set up standing orders/direct debits )

Why pay in advance or at least limit the amount you pay up front and only top up this float when you get a detailed statement of expenditure.

If we do not look after ourselves no one else is going to.

[td]

Can we try and get some answers to this topic - due diligence and how to avoid being taken in by dishonest practitioners anytime soon?

While using the case from last week as an example - what could those people who were conned have done to avoid being sucked in to such an arrangement - especially when you live 2,000+/- miles away from the centre of the activity.

[Gambrinus]

Don't bother responding, rossi won't be around for the next 24h.

thread junk cleared.

please stay on topic.

[steve]

In response to td I think that the answer lies in either sticking with the management companies that have earned a good reputation and regarding the price payable as a form of insurance or taking advice on good value alternatives only from sources that you feel you can implicitly rely on or to which you can apply some independent form of audit.

It is advisable to try and build up a good knowledge of the processes with which you are going to be involved and satisfy yourself for example as to what a proper receipt for payment of services looks like. Exchanging information with other foreign owners can be very useful to find out what they are experiencing and what they are paying. The British reserve may need to be put aside here!

It can, however, be a difficult game to keep fully on top of even as a resident. Even after making checks I was taken for a ride by a dishonest builder who it turned out had no licence and to show the extent of the uphill struggle I found out some time after the fact that papers submitted to the Camara contained forgeries of my signature. Some individuals have even had bad experiences with professional people.

I have found out the hard way that trying to take a cheaper route does not necessarily offer the best value for money. Without being too cynical it is easy to see that foreigners who do not understand the local systems or practices can be fair game for the unscrupulous operators here.

[shanagarry]

Steve

Your point is well made but in the case from last week - the miscreants were British. The 'last' people you would expect to be ripping you off. I know of friends who were taken advantage of by their lawyers - all because they 'penny-pinched' and went to a small firm with limited resources. I have no experience of builders but have interviewed a lot of them while trying to decide to refurbish or buy new - we are buying new!

We have always used a reputable legal firm - expensive (and they make mistakes) - but are capable of rectifying them when we find the mistake. During a planning discussion early last year I noticed that our garage did not appear on the property drawings and asked the lawyer - her reply - you didn't tell me it was there. I won't bore you with the rest of that conversation - but it was colourful.

I take nothing at face value and trust nobody. I reconcile every penny our management company pay for - I check every bill and I keep a float of €500 for her to use - which I spot check 2-3 times a month and turn up unannounced regularly. In 15 years she has never been a cent out. Write everything down - time and date it and e-mail it to confirm. I keep a journal for everything to do with our property - every e-mail I have ever sent/received is in a large box, indexed and to hand. I show the journal to our property manager when we meet - if there are issues that need to be resolved - there never is.

Start with the end in mind - lay down the ground rules and stick to them. Work on the basis that if it can go wrong - it will. In our experience, dealing with people in that way leaves them in no doubt - it's your money and your home/property - be firm but fair and pay them them properly. The trouble begins when a business relationship (because that's what it is) becomes a 'friendship' and you leave your guard down - you are then susceptible to a 'Mazza' situation and all the pain and heartache it entails.

Be careful out there