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live 8, mubuto, and his porches pad
live 8, mubuto, and his porches pad
so it seems that the world is being called on the help africa....bravo...born in zimbabwe i feel very sorry for the poor african
however whilst the rich part of the world is doing its part , what of the the african leaders???? for example the late president muboto of the congo maintained a large quinta near Porches with i hear has the best port wines cellar in portugal....when his entourage arrived for the annual visit the restuarant owners of a de pera thought it was xmas...no expense spared at the dinner table
so what has happened to the estate since his death...it still is maintained...who pays for the upkeep?? interesting questions if it was sold where did the sale proceeds go if not then.I suppose the deeds are now in some swiss bank vault waiting until some swiss banker can seize it as they did with the jews gold.
yes poor africa
however whilst the rich part of the world is doing its part , what of the the african leaders???? for example the late president muboto of the congo maintained a large quinta near Porches with i hear has the best port wines cellar in portugal....when his entourage arrived for the annual visit the restuarant owners of a de pera thought it was xmas...no expense spared at the dinner table
so what has happened to the estate since his death...it still is maintained...who pays for the upkeep?? interesting questions if it was sold where did the sale proceeds go if not then.I suppose the deeds are now in some swiss bank vault waiting until some swiss banker can seize it as they did with the jews gold.
yes poor africa
Live 8 etc
I'm not sure what your argument is, are you saying because a dictator (Mobutu) has billions, then the rest of a continent's starving millions are somehow not worth helping.
Is your reference to your birthplace supposed to signify you are an 'expert'?
I was in HM Royal Navy, during the seventies we used to go to the Indian Ocean on Beira Patrol, this was due to another dictatorship, in Rhodesia, one led by Ian 'never in a thousand years' Smith, there were plenty of rich Rhodesians, but none were black Africans, does that mean we should have let that situation stay the same, don't bother with the arguments about Mugabe, he only got credibility because of that cretin Smith.
Africa is in a poor state, due to over 500 years of exploitation of it's people and it's resources.
What do you say Martin?
Is your reference to your birthplace supposed to signify you are an 'expert'?
I was in HM Royal Navy, during the seventies we used to go to the Indian Ocean on Beira Patrol, this was due to another dictatorship, in Rhodesia, one led by Ian 'never in a thousand years' Smith, there were plenty of rich Rhodesians, but none were black Africans, does that mean we should have let that situation stay the same, don't bother with the arguments about Mugabe, he only got credibility because of that cretin Smith.
Africa is in a poor state, due to over 500 years of exploitation of it's people and it's resources.
What do you say Martin?
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Ellie
- CVO Oracle
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Exactly Guest1 !..
an interesting topic Martin and to read of Del's experience in Royal Navy...
MUGABE ! whats being done about him? ok he was kicked out of the Commonwealth(well that stopped him didnt it?
)..EU sanctions?Same.
Many of my mother's family lived in the former Rhodesia..my late cousin was a major in the civil war of 1980(?)...as a very young man he was married to the niece of a former Primeminister 'Garfield Todd'......
and its strange..when I look back how I would argue with him over the Smith regime....I would get so upset over the treatment of blacks..get really angry saying to him'Its their bloody country'!!
But when you look at madman Mugabe and see the slow destruction of a really beautiful country and its people it makes you weep ..
Smiths regime I admittedly abhored but this is so much worse isn't it?
Mugabe apparently has millions sorted away......
why doesn't the South African government do something.....they refuse to act..whilst their brothers have their homes destroyed and even the right to grow their own food.....
why don't we act?
Bush...Blair?
an interesting topic Martin and to read of Del's experience in Royal Navy...
MUGABE ! whats being done about him? ok he was kicked out of the Commonwealth(well that stopped him didnt it?
)..EU sanctions?Same.Many of my mother's family lived in the former Rhodesia..my late cousin was a major in the civil war of 1980(?)...as a very young man he was married to the niece of a former Primeminister 'Garfield Todd'......
and its strange..when I look back how I would argue with him over the Smith regime....I would get so upset over the treatment of blacks..get really angry saying to him'Its their bloody country'!!
But when you look at madman Mugabe and see the slow destruction of a really beautiful country and its people it makes you weep ..
Smiths regime I admittedly abhored but this is so much worse isn't it?
Mugabe apparently has millions sorted away......
why doesn't the South African government do something.....they refuse to act..whilst their brothers have their homes destroyed and even the right to grow their own food.....
why don't we act?
Bush...Blair?
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portugeezer
well Ellie, there's no oil in zimbabwe so there's no point for Bush or Blair to intervene, Mugabe even called himself the black Hitler and is got a moustache like him, and no one done anithing about it, he'd rather kick out white farmers out of their lands (wich they where feeding a lot of people) and let the farms run down and produce nothing, because they where white, if Mugabe was white and done that to black farmers the whole world would critise him and even done something about it, just because those farmers where white the world opinion is not the same, but they where born there their parents where born there, does that makes them less africans then the black zimbabwens? what about the black europeans that have born in europe does that makes them less europeans?
I agree with guest1, the corrup leaders in Africa are the main problem now to any development, but you have to question how these people got into power. Furthermore corruption can only exist in partnership, it's true these people siphon millions of pounds, keeping flats with mistresses in some of the finest areas of the world, moreover they live in conditions that millionaires in the west would envy, but who gives them the money? Isn't it true that some multinational corporations are only too happy to drop a few million into the accounts of these bods so long as they get the contracts?
I also agree that anybody born in a country, no matter what colour, creed they may be, are citizens of that country. Mugabe threw the baby out with the bathwater, at least Mandela had some sense when push came to shove. It's a great shame there are not many more like him, but then there was only one Churchill!!
I personally feel am saddened that humanity as still not sufficiently matured to come to terms with our shared reality. The sooner the greedy fat cats at the top of the food chain are brought under control, the sooner we can start to sort out our problems.
I also agree that anybody born in a country, no matter what colour, creed they may be, are citizens of that country. Mugabe threw the baby out with the bathwater, at least Mandela had some sense when push came to shove. It's a great shame there are not many more like him, but then there was only one Churchill!!
I personally feel am saddened that humanity as still not sufficiently matured to come to terms with our shared reality. The sooner the greedy fat cats at the top of the food chain are brought under control, the sooner we can start to sort out our problems.
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Guest
Exactly so Vic...we stood by whilst white farmers were murdered there didn't we?......
and as you say these farmers were 'Rhodesians/Zimbabweians too..
My cousins children were Zimbabweians(stepkids from first marriage& his own son from 2nd)....
He had many black friends there in business and in the countryside(He'd been there since his early 20s and died there when he was 64)...
he was a very successful business man with huge property and of course at the time he employed blacks in his home/garden.......
but d'you know..after that war they stayed with him..he treated them well and the old boy who had been with him most of his life wept when he died.
Although I argued with him over the regime he was basically a good man..and after that war he adopted a young girl whos father had died in it.
She now lives in England with my other relatives and received excellent education through my cousins generosity..
Sorry to ramble on.....but I could tell many tales of his adventures..in many ways he was my hero..and I miss him
He'd would turn in his grave to see whats happened to his beloved homeland..
Vic....youre spot on.....no OIL ! (people don't count)
just spotted Del's post...hear hear !
and as you say these farmers were 'Rhodesians/Zimbabweians too..
My cousins children were Zimbabweians(stepkids from first marriage& his own son from 2nd)....
He had many black friends there in business and in the countryside(He'd been there since his early 20s and died there when he was 64)...
he was a very successful business man with huge property and of course at the time he employed blacks in his home/garden.......
but d'you know..after that war they stayed with him..he treated them well and the old boy who had been with him most of his life wept when he died.
Although I argued with him over the regime he was basically a good man..and after that war he adopted a young girl whos father had died in it.
She now lives in England with my other relatives and received excellent education through my cousins generosity..
Sorry to ramble on.....but I could tell many tales of his adventures..in many ways he was my hero..and I miss him
He'd would turn in his grave to see whats happened to his beloved homeland..
Vic....youre spot on.....no OIL ! (people don't count)
just spotted Del's post...hear hear !
well yes born in africa and lived for many years both in white s africa and black rule kenya and zambia and nigeria mmm maybe i have some experience.
the point of the posting is while the world gives millions,...corrupt dicators like the late muboto had / have a very nice lifestyle....eg his porches estate....if the such estates were sold and proceeds given back it may be seen as some justice for the poor people of the congo.
and also those who are so in favour of "one man one vote" well may consider that in many african countries there is only one poliitical party and usually one president to vote for.....some electrol process!!!!
little wonder i have seen on tv that in seira leone they wish the british would go back and rule...and also in mozambiique i have heard their black citizens lament that the portuguese left.
the point of the posting is while the world gives millions,...corrupt dicators like the late muboto had / have a very nice lifestyle....eg his porches estate....if the such estates were sold and proceeds given back it may be seen as some justice for the poor people of the congo.
and also those who are so in favour of "one man one vote" well may consider that in many african countries there is only one poliitical party and usually one president to vote for.....some electrol process!!!!
little wonder i have seen on tv that in seira leone they wish the british would go back and rule...and also in mozambiique i have heard their black citizens lament that the portuguese left.
Whilst on the surface the argument appears sound, and the sentiment is worthy, I would argue on several counts.
Nigeria for example, every leader in Nigeria since independence was educated in Britain, all the coups were undertaken by men trained at Sandhurst, their biggest trading partner during their dictatorships was Britain.
Mobutu was a protege of the United States, his role in the murder of Patrice Lumumba was not only sanctioned by that country, via it's intelligence agencies, but supported.
Idi Amin was a sergeant in the British Army who gained promotion by his wanton murder of Kenyans during the Mau Mau insurgency, his subsequent rule in Uganda was supported by both Britain and America, only when the Frankenstein turned against his master did they move against him, he was still allowed to go and live in Saudi Arabia, I'm sure the Americans know where he is, I do. Yet nothing is done to bring this murderer to justice?
I could go on, an endless list of cynical manipulation in the cause of profit.
Even Saddam Hussein was originally a US agent, there was Marcos in the Philippines, Noriega in Panama, I don't want to get boring here.
If you can explain all this without accepting the role of the 'rich' nations (how did they get rich) I'd be interested to hear.
Who voted for Bush?
Why don't the super billionaires in the US sell their property and give it to the millions of poor there?
Nigeria for example, every leader in Nigeria since independence was educated in Britain, all the coups were undertaken by men trained at Sandhurst, their biggest trading partner during their dictatorships was Britain.
Mobutu was a protege of the United States, his role in the murder of Patrice Lumumba was not only sanctioned by that country, via it's intelligence agencies, but supported.
Idi Amin was a sergeant in the British Army who gained promotion by his wanton murder of Kenyans during the Mau Mau insurgency, his subsequent rule in Uganda was supported by both Britain and America, only when the Frankenstein turned against his master did they move against him, he was still allowed to go and live in Saudi Arabia, I'm sure the Americans know where he is, I do. Yet nothing is done to bring this murderer to justice?
I could go on, an endless list of cynical manipulation in the cause of profit.
Even Saddam Hussein was originally a US agent, there was Marcos in the Philippines, Noriega in Panama, I don't want to get boring here.
If you can explain all this without accepting the role of the 'rich' nations (how did they get rich) I'd be interested to hear.
Who voted for Bush?
Why don't the super billionaires in the US sell their property and give it to the millions of poor there?
Del,Idi Amin died in August 03.But Im sure nobody mourned him.
As for the concerts given for aid to mainly Africa,thats fine as long as it reaches the people most in need.May sound cynical but the performers could probably each sign a cheque for million and not miss it.
I saw on the news this evening about the funds raised for the Boxing day Tsunami disaster.Millions collected in this country but it seems not lot has been done,the poor local people are still living in squalor and theres also talk that lot of money will be spent on building hotels!
As for the concerts given for aid to mainly Africa,thats fine as long as it reaches the people most in need.May sound cynical but the performers could probably each sign a cheque for million and not miss it.
I saw on the news this evening about the funds raised for the Boxing day Tsunami disaster.Millions collected in this country but it seems not lot has been done,the poor local people are still living in squalor and theres also talk that lot of money will be spent on building hotels!
Thanks Minx,
Yeah, I realised after I posted that he died in Jeddah, a slight rush of blood to the head there I think. I agree with you, the whole thing makes my blood boil. Your point about the stars signing cheques is spot on, there's plenty of money sitting idle in bank accounts that could be used constructively. That's me off the soapbox now.
Thanks to Martin for bringing the topic up
Yeah, I realised after I posted that he died in Jeddah, a slight rush of blood to the head there I think. I agree with you, the whole thing makes my blood boil. Your point about the stars signing cheques is spot on, there's plenty of money sitting idle in bank accounts that could be used constructively. That's me off the soapbox now.
Thanks to Martin for bringing the topic up